Talking with Harriette Estel Berman

Episode #182

Today I talk with artist Harriete Estel Berman who uses post-consumer recycled materials to construct artwork and jewelry with social commentary. She is currently writing an ongoing series of PROFESSIONAL GUIDELINES for artists to help and promote practical solutions for recurring issues in the art and craft community.

Harriete Estel Berman Interview Transcription

Alison Lee: As I was just saying, I love talking to people who are passionate about their passion. There's nothing more fun than to listen to that. And today, I have someone very passionate about who is going to be speaking, Harriette Estela Berman. If you don’t know her, Google her. Because you have to go and see her work. I think I was first introduced to Hariette by falling in love with her jewelry pieces, her tin work. But when you go on the site, I could not. You can spend a long time. She has a wonderful deep amount of work to go through that. It's quite enjoyable. Today we are talking about something very interesting. It's a pleasure to have you today and talking Harriette. Thanks a lot for coming on and chatting with me.

Harriete Estel Berman: I’m really looking forward to this. Thank you so much for having me.

Alison: You know I love talking to you. Now I know that one of the reasons why we wanted to talk was recently at the synergy conference which was a polymer clay conference held, let's see. Was it last month? March 2013.

Hariette: It was in March and it was in Atlanta Georgia.

Alison: Atlanta, Georgia. You spoke there and we are going to continue the conversation. I know your talk was, and I love the title, "The good, the bad and the ugly in the age of the internet." And how I'm assuming, how that affects art and craft and the good and the bad. Let's start with, let’s just get right into it. Let's start with the really bad. What's the worst thing that's happened?

Hariette: OK. Bad. There are lots of bad. That's really super unfortunate. And before we even launch into the good, the bad and the ugly, I won't say that these issues are not, even though I gave the lecture at the polymer clay conference, I want to say that the issues are not limited to polymer clay. It's unfortunate that these issues, the good, the bad and the ugly exist within the entire arts and crafts community. So there are some very good things about the internet. We all know them. We get to have a fabulous social network.

Alison: Wait, wait, wait. Let’s do the bad first. Because we know I love to end with the good. Go with the bad.

Hariette: Oh bad. Ok. Bad.
Alison: The heat of the discussion. Because why? What's the worst? Well then, I'll have to go right to the ugly. Should we go to the ugly?

Alison: Right to the ugly. Forget the bad. Right to the ugly.

Hariette: OK. I think the ugly is sharing content or designs, sharing information that you did not write or you did not create by yourself.

Alison: Alright so give an example. What's something that is very upsetting? Give me an example?
So everyone follows you.

Hariette: Very unfortunate? How about derivative copying of somebody else's work and then publishing it as your own art or craft. And I hear examples of this all the time. It's really super unfortunately that I hear examples of peoples work copied and then imposters at the ACC craft show. I heard another example today on which an imposter's work was sold at Cold Water Creek.

Alison: Wait. When you say imposter, let's be very clear here. Because it's a very interesting phenomenon. Do you think even imposters think of themselves as imposters?

Hariette: Well that's a good point. It goes right to one of the difficulties even discussing it is that there is plenty of gray areas here. Sometimes the copycat person thinks that they made original work and I can understand that it happens or that people might arrive at an idea simultaneously. These things do happen. That, you know going with the current trends of design or fashion that they might have a similar idea.

Alison: You know in the world of fashion it's just all over the place. And here is a clearer case of an imposter. You can go to Canal Street in Manhattan and by a fake imposter Louis Vinton some designer bag. Clearly an imposter.

Hariette: In those cases many of those designer bags that are sold like on Canal Street, they are actually made, so much of that type of fashion accessory is made in China. Then after the Chinese factory has fulfilled their order for the Louis Vinton bag, then they continue to produce a few more and they end up on Canal Street. I do understand that these copycat fashion accessories that they are really trying to crack down on this. And you used to see. I go to New Jersey in the summer time all the time. And you would see those in flea markets. But let’s just go into the craft world. This is where it gets uglier. When another artist copies another artist's work or here's another example, they copy the instruction from a workshop and they post it on their blog or website.

Alison: As? As what?

Hariette: Either two choices: Original content or maybe they are not publishing it as original content but they are sharing unethically. So you get into a really super amazingly gray areas here in some regard that people might not understand. That because the information is made available to them at a workshop for example. Because we have taken the workshop whether it's online or at a weekend's class, doesn’t actually give them permission to publish the information on their website or blog. They were given the privilege to participate, they possibly paid for taking the workshop. But they did not pay to then share the information with the broader community.

Alison: So what do you feel about this? Because I'm with you. And I always look for the positive with this and why does it happen and it's there for good reason. And if it’s going to keep occurring how do we take that energy and drive it forward in a positive way? I sort of feel that it's the responsibility of the teacher to make sure that doesn’t happen. Its 100% responsibility for the teacher and the students. I really believe because you'll see maybe one T-shirt that's copied more than others or one person that something is going on for that person.

Hariette: I agree with you completely. I do suggest in my recommendations that the teacher actually make it part of the discussion. And if your class education whether it's the online tutorial for 45 minutes or your two-day workshop, the premise is education. And I'm saying that you need to extend the education of your topic, your technique, your skill to the appropriate use of the information. And that’s exactly what you are talking about that if it's a 45 minutes workshop, I think you do have the responsibility to spend five minutes talking about how to use the information and how to use departure point for the student and that by participating in that 45 minutes online tutorial as just one example, it didn’t give them permission to then share it or extend the audience because they don't own the material.

Alison: And I think that's fair. You have to teach people. This is a new age on the internet and it's certainly has been blown apart and very close to the music business as well you know it's you know, [inaudible] people doing free downloads of the music. So that business went through a huge change. I mean every record store closed. So you know it’s like how you incorporate that that is part of the internet to make it work for everyone and I think a big part of it is the responsibility of the person sharing the information.

Hariette: And I have another idea which is also a very positive way of sharing the information. We are not talking, and that's where some people. Two aspects here about sharing information. First of all, we're all for sharing information but the point is to share information ethically and legally. So the second part is that another way we are going about this, if you took a fabulous online tutorial of Craft cast or a two-day workshop of so and so place, then if you are really enthusiastic about that material, an appropriate way to share this information is to write a review. And you could post this on your Face book page, on your website, on your blog. I took this amazing workshop and then you can construct original content which is important here, original content about why the workshop was good, what you learned. And so, therefore, you've created your own original content, you have honored the person who has invested so much time creating that information. And we have to [inaudible] it too as an investment in our community. And what happens when you share information unethically or illegally is that you perhaps affected the revenue stream of the person who might have invested days, weeks or years in developing that skill set. And then you share the information inappropriately, they have affected the revenue and they might not give workshops anymore because they feel burnt. And I'm not just making it up. I hear from plenty of people who feel burnt out by how people have unethically shared the information that they have invested perhaps a lifetime in developing.

Alison: And then, I'm with you. And then they are that gray area again where why did that happen to you and taking responsibility for it? So I like to be on both sides of the fence and hey I'm someone making content all the time and I don’t want my content stolen, given away, copied. People worked really hard. They need to pay for it. And you know I'd be the first to say if it showed up that I just have my lawyer do the things you need to do legally. I'm not going to invest the emotional time in that. But it is, there's an emotional thing that gets invested that destroys people that you just to take it out of that round. You don’t want to get someone burnt out because they feel that way. Do you know what I'm saying?

Hariette: Yeah. it's also a really challenging issue for people.

Alison: You just said something great. And Harriette I just want to, you just sums it great. Which is you just gave a way for people to be proactive and say make your own original content? That's something people don’t have the tools. It might not occur to them. Make original content, wow!

Hariette: Right. And with the internet the way it is right now, the search algorithms if people know anything about SEL have changed markedly in the past year.

Alison: Oh my gosh. I think they change all the time. That's crazy.

Hariette: Yes. But the future of the internet is original content. So you want to learn to create your own original content with benefits yourself and the community. So this could be your larger objective. And there are other uglies though. It gets scary territory here. Oh here's an ugly. There seem to be people who take tutorials let’s say from a magazine as one example and then they teach a workshop based on somebody else's technique or they take a workshop for two today’s and then they decided they are now the master qualified to teach a workshop. Or they take work or, and I see it all the time and let's say have all of a sudden decided that now they are prepared to teach a workshop or skill set that really represents somebody else's artistic voice.

Alison: Well I'm going to assume in ten examples of that, they'll probably all different types of grey lines there because my first question is, you know, is that if it says copyrighted in that article, do not teach this then you are breaking the law. If it's just information out there and an artist takes it, we use into their own persona and put back something out there that has their stamp on it, then that's just one more thing you've learned in your arsenal as a teacher. Then there is the person who's just desperate and wants to teach and here's a good idea. Can I teach it to myself tonight and hold a workshop next week. That's a different person. And I don’t think they have long term survival because it's just not deep enough.

Hariette: Absolutely and I understand what you are saying but on the other hand by actually talking about this out loud, I think that by making it a subject of a conversation like we are right now on the radio or what I did in my lecture, we raise people's awareness at how important it is to create your original content. In other words, this goes again to workshop idea problem and that is when you teach a workshop it should be really from the skills and techniques or the artistic vision that you developed yourself over years. It should be because you copied this month's tutorial out of the magazine. And if I made it up, actually I don’t think that I made it up because I went to the one-panel discussion and a lady, and I didn’t know who it was so I can say this. She remains anonymous even to me but she stood up and she was thanking the magazine for her tutorials because she was using them for her workshops. And I was a little bit appalled. I was actually shocked because she was standing up and she was thanking them publicly for this not realizing what an ethical boundary she had just crossed.

Alison: And that's a good question you just said, not realizing. And here's where I think it gets deeper. I mean I've had a student who I taught metal something to for quite some time. And she went out right away and start selling something, it was like I wanted to say please don’t tell anyone that you learned from me because the craftsmanship isn’t there yet. It's just not it but I understand that's all she could see. She just didn’t have the vision of being able to see more and that's when it falls back on I think the teacher. Because we don’t teach design and finding your own voice. We teach techniques and I do that. I know what people want to, they want to make something, the next pretty thing. I'm not teaching people to be an artist. I'm not running an art school. But I loved when I went to art school and I wish more people had a design background so they could trust their own voice, but that's not there.

Hariette: Well we are talking about how it takes many years to develop your artistic voice and sense of design, the use of color and all the things that come into making great art of craft objects or whatever you are making for that moment. And I think this is part of the age of the internet. And now in my lecture, I talk about this development of the artist as six creative steps of development. And what has happened that originally you went through this original learning phases copying, developing your skillset, combining skills and I'm summarizing briefly here. And what's happened with the internet is people have somehow jumped from all of a sudden an interest in the media to now sharing online. And going back to the lecture again, we seem to have a perhaps premature desire for attention and willingness to take shortcuts. All of this kind of carelessness provided that no one will notice. That no one will call us on the fact that perhaps we are really not yet qualified to teach a workshop.

Alison: But it is a speedy world today. We don't even read books anymore. I mean that's an underlying thing as well. We do text messaging, we don’t write letters. So yes, everything is sped up.

Hariette: And I understand that everything is sped up but I am still saying that going back books and content within those books and I'm going to use two books as an illustration. "Talent is overrated", where they talk about it takes 10,000 hours to develop a skill set. And the way that I understand that everything in our lives is accelerated, there comes a point in which you have to say I need to invest in learning more about my artistic voice. I need to more about my skill set. And it's a reasonable expectation that before people start teaching that they have some level of mastery.

Alison: It is a good conversation to say all this because people are unaware, as my son says 'unawares' of all that. You know it does take that many hours that freaks people out, you know.

Hariette: And the 10,000 hours it's not like, for some people you use as an illustration in the book. We know Bill Gates. He was actually developing his level of mastery in computers going back into high school. We have skill sets that we've been building on for a lifetime. So perhaps this is where I'm coming from where it's just when you took your first polymer of clay class, that's just being one example. Perhaps it goes back to your watercolor experience and the fact that you used oil paints and you understand color and you know a little bit about design and so I can easily in my mind say that you can include that as a part of your 10,000 hours.

Alison: Absolutely. Absolutely I agree.

Hariette: But we are jumping the gun a little bit when it comes to all of a sudden saying that somebody is qualified to teach a workshop. And you know what it goes back to is the content providers to some extent. That we have to look or ask the editors of magazines or books or even Craft cast, you say "Well who is the most qualified person to teach so and so technique?" And in a speedy society, sometimes it’s hard for us to stop, and kind of evaluate research. The content providers themselves also have a level of responsibility to investigate and find out who is the most qualified to teach a particular skill set.

Alison: I agree.

Hariette: It gets a little bit scary sometimes because there's as you say, our society is so sped up and so we're rushing to use or find information.

Alison: Listen. I talk to a lot of teachers, so I'm aware of people who are just beginning and people who are more advanced because they have been a teacher for so long. But there's another level that [inaudible] where some teachers can’t handle, they can’t handle giving away their information in a way that's just too upsetting to them when it comes back at them. Because they don’t want, you know. I've heard it all like you have. I've worked with and talked to teachers who are more than qualified to teach and they have learned techniques from other people, maybe years back. and yet those people get upset that they are showing that. I mean there's a big line up, Ok. You copied something you learned last week and you are teaching it this week. And I taught you something 10 years ago a little thing you have added into your repertoire, I mean where do you draw those lines people? I've heard both ends of those things.

Hariette: Yes. There is a kind of grey area but there are so many people that use something an excuse such as there is nothing new under the sun or all these ideas. They don’t understand that there is the idea of finding your own artistic voice.

Alison: Yes. And it scares the hell out of people. That they can’t find it fast enough.

Hariette: And that's one of those issues that I have not explored as much as I would like but I do feel like we have built a little bit of an economy based on workshops or tutorials. After we've become overdependent on them. And what happens is that even the people and I can personally think of many examples of people I know, they are searching for their artistic voice instead of spending the 20 hours that they would invest in a workshop and all the transportation etc and time. So we say 20 hours a weekend. Instead of investing that 20 hours of staying alone in their studio with themselves, being willing to make mistakes to find their artistic voice, they take another workshop. And they do that over and over and over with this expectation that by taking another workshop and finding another skill that they will find themselves and finding yourself and finding your artistic voice will not come from outside of you.

Alison: Oh Hallelujah. I'm on the same soapbox as you are hun, so I agree. But that's a struggle and that's a very hard thing for people to look at.

Hariette: That's true. I understand that. But I don’t think that we are giving enough voice, enough licenses to the idea that success comes from a lot of failures and mistakes. And that the trial and error that you are actually learning a tremendous amount.

Alison: Yes. We do know that. Absolutely. You and I could probably list enough mistakes, different things we've done. The mistakes fill the room.

Hariette: Yes and for anybody who we look at who as, perceived as the leader in that field or leader in a media, if you look at their first evolutions of an idea and if you look at their later evolutions you say, wow? They have moved so far. But the reason why they move so far over the years is that they stay dedicated to finding their artistic voice and developing their artistic voice.

Alison: I would go so far to say they are not even thinking about finding their artistic voice. They are passionate, nothing is getting in their way and their artistic voice is a result from the process they have dedicated themselves to.

Hariette: Really good point.

Alison: And you know we can’t confuse that I, there’s artistic and there is a hobbyist and I love them both 100% and equally as well. I think some people might get confused about what they want to call themselves because they think there is one better than the other and they are not. And I'm the first to say I love a quick weekend workshop like I did last week making sugar flowers and I'm not looking to be a pastry chef but I love what I learned. That's fun. But I'm not going to confuse it with now I'm going to start selling cakes.

Hariette: A really good point there Ok. This is one of the uglies. I think it's really ugly, I know I'm getting myself into dangerous territory here. I think it's really ugly when to take techniques that you learn and I say technique but it could be some skill set or any variable definition. When you take that specific skill set that you learned in a book, a tutorial, a workshop and then all of a sudden you've made two and you are selling one. Now I have a real problem with it.

Alison: What’s your problem with it?

Hariette: It's not ok. And I know that some workshop teachers will say its fine, you can take our workshop and sell, you can take from. What I think is a problem is that 1) It misrepresents the artistic voice of that person who made it. Because it's really not their voice that is speaking there it’s from the workshop. And they are not creating any kind of professional identity for themselves and yet I think that when you have crossed the line to selling, you are starting to call yourself, this is where you cross the line into professional. Hobbyists don’t need to sell. They make it for themselves. They are having a great time. They give it to their son, their daughter, their friend. And there is a role for that. If you want to make sugar flowers and you decorate your anniversary cake and you have a fabulous time. I'm not dismissing that has value and entertainment. As you said, you didn’t start turning yourself into a pastry chef and then doing online tutorials on the next TV show for the cake guy. But you know, if you went on that TV show making flowers, you would now be misrepresenting your skillset.

Alison: I gotta tell you something Hariette, and I really feel this way. And I have been a professional in the business of advertising and online now for quite some time. You will not last. If I decided after taking that class I'm now going to start selling, I’m not going to get a business together. It's not going to happen. Because if it does, you've got some miracle powder that's way past just making some sugar flowers. It's not going to happen. That's why I don’t get up in arms about people who do that. Because it's not going to go anywhere or threaten much of anything. It's just not. There's no depth to it.

Hariette: Right. And I'm not saying I'm threatened by it, what I'm saying is that I think it's time to lend a voice to the fact that perhaps entering into the marketplace before you've developed your artistic voice at whatever that level will be, kind of fills our craft marketplace with an oversupply of [inaudible], let’s say lower-level type of work that's not developed. And what we are looking at now and I looked at it very closely, is that the crafts marketplace is really suffering badly. And there are a lot of reasons including a poor economy/ But we also have a marketplace that's filled to overfilled with, and it comes from at the street festival to the more higher-level craft fair to online places like Etsy. And what's happening is that everybody who makes something now wants to sell it. What happened to just making it because you love doing it?

Alison: I agree. There are people that still find the joy of making but the thing that I have found because I also have spent time in this arena is that, no one wants to take classes that are about critiques. No one even understands the concept of critiques. Critiques are gone and no one wants to hear it. No one wants to spend that time to really do what's needed to get your level of work up to that.

Hariette: This is really unfortunate.

Alison: It is unfortunate.

Hariette: I address that as another one of my points in the lecture.

Alison: That's the old way of working in art school. You do your work, you are critiqued for years and then you redo it and you think [makes sounds] and in the craft world, that has gone by the wayside. No one is really that interested.

Hariette: Well I'm talking that we need to raise that conversation again. This is being we, I’m saying you and I are talking about it now but leaders within the field need to talk about the value of making your work better and talking about what makes it better. Even when I was working on my lecture and I spent months working on this lecture because I felt it was a really important topic. And I discussed the issues at length with anybody that would listen to me. And I gave my lecture to friends who would then critique me and my son, daughter and husband had to listen to it over and over again and critique me. And they were, see the value of that is that these people because I asked for it, was brutally honest. They questioned me. They made me evaluate and review every nuance component of my lecture and it made it better.

Alison: Well you just said the right thing. You knew to ask. I will be blunt honest. The synergy conference two years ago, I was one of the keynote speakers. I sucked. I didn’t know what a keynote speaker was supposed to do. And I'm good at talking and good at what I do. I didn’t even know to ask yet. So I understand when people don't know how to ask. I sucked. I came home and I got a coach and my next keynote speech was knocked out of the park. I'm not going to do that again. Now I'm going to get critiqued there and I'm going to learn what you need to do in there. But not everyone knows that you know.

Hariette: It's a really valuable commodity just that we are talking about it now. And even if you were giving a workshop to people, this again could be part of the conversation. How important it is to make it, to actually get really great feedback and when I say feedback, I am not talking about alike on a facebook page. And I called it in my lecture the world of like. Like is one of those first-grade words, I think they've actually moved it back to kindergarten now. We need to be and I understand, I'm not condemning the world like or the like comment, I'm not. What I am questioning is that we think that by clicking a like button, we have offered feedback and we have not.

Alison: No, that's correct. You’re right.

Hariette: And everybody is so hypersensitive about getting even the most affirming comment like, say your critique and again they are confusing the world critiques with critical. When someone is giving you a critique they are not on the best side. Not being critical, they are evaluating with a really discerning eye. And I believe that even if you don’t know how to give a critique, I still believe you look at a dress, a piece of jewelry, an object, an art or a painting and you don’t have to know a lot about it to say, "I find someone so interesting. This area of the painting looks fabulous. This part of the piece of jewelry looks great." And if you talk about things with that kind of eye, and open up the conversation up for critique, you learned so much more from other people.

Alison: That is a hard one for people to swallow. It just is. And here's the thing. And here's in the conversation. This is where you get your greatest gift and it's also in the negative comments. And once you can be open to that, and if you are building let’s say business because if you are doing it, you are doing it for money, your art. Let’s say if you're up to that. I mean you are doing it because you love it but you are hoping to build a business. If you also building a business in there, your negative criticism is the most valuable. As much as it can hurt, it's the way to really look at something. There is a way to also, I've done this also with my son because he's on stage and you have to discern, "Ok that's just a crazy person. We are not going to listen to that." But there's so much to listen to and the negative has more gold in there to learn from than anything else.

Hariette: And we can also learn from the positive or the negative. The point is that you do have to wear your rhinoceros skin at all times. You take what you find useable. If you don’t find a comment follows a direction that you care to go, you can ignore it. There's nothing wrong with ignoring the feedback that you feel is irrelevant to your larger objective. But the idea is to elevate your work, and when I say elevate I don’t care whether you are an enthusiast or if you are a professional. The idea is to elevate your work to make it better at whatever level you are working at. And to think that people don’t want to make something better, I don't believe it.

Alison: Well I think there is personal satisfaction. You have to be going for something more. Your ableness gets back to it. You can now get your personal voice, your unique personal voice out more because you have gotten better. So that's where the win is. It's like I can now really express more how I want to express myself because I'm better at it.

Hariette: And if you have been practicing in developing your artistic voice, it's interesting how you believe it will shine through. And I'm going o offer an illustration. The Broken Telephone project that was put together by Dan Cormier. What was really interesting was that even though the people were all a telephone game, working off of a similar object, passing along the idea another object, another object. Because each one of those people that was addressing his project had an artistic voice. The outcome their voice showed through, and that's what we're talking about.

Alison: It's a good demonstration of what that means.

Hariette: So to be inspired by another person's work or a workshop does not mean that you make derivative work. There seems to be some kind of defense going on which I'm not going to try and justify that there's nothing new under the sun, etcetera. I'm saying that if you know yourself and your artistic voice, it will shine through no matter what you do.

Alison: And there's hard work to go into finding your artistic voice.

Hariette: Yes. But it's worth it.

Alison: It's worth it. That's the secret.

Hariette: Yes. It's like being stronger when you exercise. It takes practice.

Alison: It does and I think that's really the more people can get that out there and the teachers are the ones that have to do it, it's like this is how the voice comes through, it's by the hard work. It's by the mistakes, it's by the frustrations, it's by the keep going no matter what.

Hariette: But it's worth it.

Alison: It's worth it. I agree.

Hariette: This is big like a rainbow, the pot of gold at the end. It's also to use another ex metaphor. It's like stretching and people feel like they are not flexible and the point I want to make is that it's like everybody is flexible to a reasonable amount is that you haven’t been practicing. If you haven’t been practicing at finding your artistic voice then it's not going to be there because you haven’t been practicing with your skillset.

Alison: And there's nothing wrong with that because not everyone has to find their artistic voice if they don't want to. They can just enjoy their workshops and go and do.

Hariette: Absolutely. Take their workshop and share it with other people and represent themselves as a master. They should not be taking their work into the marketplace because they wanted to have a hobby and enjoy and that is completely appropriate. It's when you cross boundaries and this is where also people need to learn about what is both legal and ethical behavior. And in the age of the internet, we have somehow skipped a few steps and our enthusiasm and our speed has gotten away from us and we need to step back and look more carefully and can be far richer for the experience.

Alison: I agree with you. And the more we can bring back the two things, you know taking responsibility for your own unique voice as well as really showing people how to develop their own content because like we started this conversation ,I don’t think a lot of those people even know that they are not being original. They think they are. I remember I had a talk with someone and again I had a lawyer handle it but they came up with a crafting podcast, this is a while back and they change the one letter in the Craft cast. And Craft cast is trademark and I said, it doesn’t work that way. And I could tell, she was a young woman that thought oh but great minds seeing alike and it’s not the same because there is one letter different and I’m like actually here is the trademark number and I had a lawyer do the letter there and it's really ignorance. She really thought that great minds think alike. It's like not in this case.

Hariette: There seem to be a few excuses and part of it is learning to be informed, which is why I gave the lecture and I hope that.

Alison: You’re good. Your good honey. You're getting it out there and it's not easy to be the person on the soapbox saying things like this. It's not but I'm there with you.

Hariette: I really appreciate the fact that we are willing to talk about it out loud and help people see that there is some larger considerations here.

Alison: And it’s a good reminder. We forget about the larger considerations. Thank you for being the person doing that.

Hariette: Our objective is to build a stronger community and no matter what media you are in, it's to build a more vibrant craft community for everybody.

Alison: Yeah. That's a great mission to have there. It really is so. Well, I knew it would be fun talking to you. I knew I didn’t even need a list of questions.

Hariette: Ok. You just got me on a roll but I really appreciate this opportunity.

Alison: Let's tell everyone. Go to the website, go to the Craftcast.com site to go check for all the links or just Google in Harriett Estela Berman's name and a lot of things will come up. You can go check out her the keynote speech that she did on a few different places, on her website, on askharriette as well as slideshow.com. But come over to Craftcast.com for those links to make it easy. Thank you, darling.

Hariette: Thank you.

Alison: I'll talk to you again soon.